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andrea

Andrea Chierici is the founder of Taste Bologna, a food tour company offering small-group walking tours of Bologna and Modena in Emilia-Romagna, Italy. Andrea grew up in a small village near Bologna, and his own love of food, love of travel, and love of his native city led him to start Taste Bologna five years ago.

Andrea has been my own mentor in all things related to Bologna. For this interview, we met at the lovely Trattoria Da Me in central Bologna. During the conversation we talk about growing up near Bologna, the effects of rising tourism in Bologna, and why he decided to found a different sort of tour company.

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Justin Naylor: Andrea, thanks for taking the time to talk today. Tell me about your memories of Bologna growing up.

Andrea Chierici: Bologna was like a myth. It was like the big city. I remember when my mother brought me to the cinema in Via Independenza that doesn’t exist anymore. Now it’s all shops like Zara, H&M and so on, but if you look on the ground in Via Independenza you can still see CINEMA written there. We arrived by train and it was a lot different than my village. My village is in the countryside, it is a farmer’s village. It has a small city center. So, you can imagine: you arrive in Bologna, you see all these people walking in a hurry. It was like a different world.

JN: This was in the 1980s?

AC: Yes, then later, as soon as I was a teenager, of course my village was not enough to spend a night with my friends. As soon as I was fourteen, I got a motorcycle and then every time we could, we went to Bologna.

JN: How long a drive was it, by motor scooter?

AC: It was twenty minutes; it was close. But, imagine – in my village, there was one pub. You go to the pub, and it’s done. At that time, you had in Bologna everything you wanted. It was really an escape.

JN: Who cooked in your house, when you were growing up? What dishes do you remember from your boyhood?

AC: Until I was seventeen or eighteen, I wasn’t able to cook almost anything. I had interest, but I thought that having dinner was a hamburger, steak, a simple pasta, and that’s it.

JN: Because of that, did Bologna also represent a different reality for food? Maybe not until you were older?

AC: Yes, I discovered it later. When I was a kid, going to restaurants with my family was something really exclusive, something just for big events. Until I was eighteen or twenty, I went to a restaurant with my parents about twice a year. So I didn’t get any expertise.

JN: How then, without a strong background in food, did you come to found a company that gives food tours?

AC: Actually, since I was a kid I wasn’t near the kitchen, but I was looking, I was staring at my grandmothers preparing food. My grandfather used to bring me where the food was created. I remember spending a full afternoon with them going to farms, picking eggs. I knew where real food came from, and the real flavor of fruit and vegetables. One of my grandfathers was a butcher, and the other had a grocery store. So, even if my mother wasn’t a good cook, I started to appreciate the difference between a good product and an industrial product, not well-made.

JN: How did that lead you to start Taste Bologna?

AC: Taste Bologna started later. My interest in cooking and food increased through a friend. One of my dearest friends hosted me in Pantelleria. It’s a small island near Sicily where his mother lives. I spent two weeks with her when I was eighteen. Filippo’s mother used to own a restaurant; she was a chef. For two weeks, every day I had – morning and evening – different food with different ingredients, all made by her in the kitchen. I came home from the trip saying, OK, so I can live for two weeks not eating the same thing, but I can go shopping and make delicious dishes by myself just by cooking them. So then, I opened Pandora’s vase. I started to read and learn everything about food, how it’s made, and so my interest from that time – about fifteen years ago – was like, boom! And it grows every day.

JN: What was your intention in starting your company?

AC: When I created the company, Bologna was a lot different than today, speaking of tourism. Only five years ago, I was would walk through Piazza Maggiore and meet these young couples with a map, wandering. Where is San Luca? Where is the cathedral? Where should we go, what should we do? There was nothing on the internet in English, even in Italian, speaking about where to go and what to do in Bologna. I’m not really a fan of guided tours; I didn’t want to create the classic guided tour where you follow the guide with the umbrella and then she stops and talks about dates and historic events. If you’re interested in that – and there are people who are interested in that – you can get a historical guide, or you can read online and get informed. I wanted to do another kind of job: go around with a small group of people, because I want to talk with all the people that I meet, I want to learn where they come from, what they cook, what they like, what they don’t like, and I want people to talk to each other.

I’m not a teacher. I can teach you nothing! But what I can do is to help you discover the places where I bring my friends. I can take you on a walk, and talk about the things that I’ve eaten since I was a kid, and try to make you comfortable, and give you a good four hours that you will remember. You won’t remember the date when San Petronio cathedral was built, but hopefully you will remember the funny story of how tortellini were created, and the story of the wife and husband who fell in love through coffee, and who now own a coffee place together. With the phone in your hand, you basically have all the information you need, so why do you need a guide to bring you around? You need a guide to make you feel happy to visit a town, like you wouldn’t be by yourself. Of course you can visit Bologna by yourself, you can choose the place yourself. But with someone who has grown up here, maybe you can go a little bit deeper and break the glass between you and the people beyond the counter – hear their story, ask your questions, in a good five hours. That was my idea.

JN: In other words, making it personal.

AC: Yes.

JN: You said that it’s changed a lot in five years, and a lot of tour companies have popped up. How would you say that yours is different? Is it the fact that it’s more personal, or is there something else that’s unique?

AC: I’ll tell you what I think I do differently. I put the care and the quality of what you have on the table first, and my wish is to treat tourists – or customers, but let’s call them tourists – not as tourists. Some people could say, OK, you’re from a pretty different part of the world, you’ve never had gelato. Why should you have the best? I could give the cheapest. Or with Italian coffee, why should I give you the best? I could give the one that’s more convenient, that’s easier to reach. That’s not my interest. I want to give you what’s best for me, because I’d like you to come home with a new taste in your mouth, so you can make comparisons. When you come home, you can say, OK, I’ve had this gelato in that place, and now you give me this. So you have something to compare. I only choose places and producers and shops who care a lot about what they do. I don’t know if my competitors do it, but that’s my idea. For example, just today I saw a photo of one of my competitors, and there was this condimento balsamico, a budget-quality balsamic vinegar instead of the real thing.I took a 3-month course about balsamic, and I make sure all my guides make tourists know why you have to pay 50 Euro for that bottle and not 4 Euro.

JN: But this tour group today was getting the condimento as if it were the real thing?

AC: Of course, if it’s the first time you have it and you see “balsamic”, maybe IGP, you can’t know. My aim is to make you know what’s happening.

JN: For those who have never been here to Bologna, how would you describe the city? What is its character? How do you like to introduce the city to people who are deciding whether to come here or not?

AC: This is a very hard question, because it’s like asking me, “Describe the woman you love.” For me, it’s very difficult. What I can say to you is what Bologna is for me. Bologna is the place where I go out to walk at night, without any place to go, just to walk under the porticoes, get lost, find new streets…

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JN: It’s safe.

AC: You are safe, and just happy to do this. It’s not a big city – it’s not New York, it’s not Rome, it’s not London. But still, every time I go out – still today, after 33 years – I discover new places, new frescoes inside buildings I’ve passed a hundred times. The light was always turned off and I never noticed it; I passed and I saw a fresco inside which is just gorgeous. I can give you a lot of examples of things I discovered just by walking. I have a lot of friends who studied in Bologna and then decided to stay here. Some people say it’s about jobs, that you can find one easier here than in the South, but I don’t think it’s the right question.

JN: As the owner of a tour company, your mission is to bring more tourists to Bologna. But there’s a very fine line, because how do you keep it from becoming Venice or Florence? You don’t want to see the Bologna that you love become a theme park. How do you balance the desire to bring more people without losing control, the way Florence or Venice has lost control?

AC: It’s very important. With my tours I don’t want to have a big impact on the places we visit and on the city. So, for example, I take small groups of eight people, because we visit small, family shops. I want the normal customer not to think that they are going to a turistic place. I want Bolognese like me to still be able to go shopping in the same places. If I bring a group of thirty people to Osteria dal Sole, having fun, making noise, I would completely change the atmosphere. What’s Osteria dal Sole without the old men that are there all day, playing cards and drinking wine? I don’t want to change that.

JN: So, as long as the groups are small, you can have a lot of them before it becomes a problem?

AC: I have a maximum of two groups in a day, but all my guides know that they should try not to come together in the same place.

JN: Right. And ultimately – I’m thinking of Venice here – as much as it’s easy to blame the tourists, which I do sometimes, it’s also the government. They can do whatever they have to do to preserve local culture. The same is true for Bologna. What could Bologna do, to help instead of hurt the situation?

AC: These days, in the news, there’s a big fight between Airbnb and short-rent apartments and students from the University. Students can’t find apartments anymore. They’re all Airbnb, or at least that’s what people say. If you own an apartment in Bologna, you can give it to a group of students to 700 Euro a month, or you can give it to a couple of tourists for 100 Euro a night. If you leave the decision to the market, it’s an easy decision. It’s from the government that you should make some limits.

JN: Do you think that Bologna is going to do the right thing?

AC: I think at the moment there’s still a good balance between people who live here, people who study here, and people who come here for a weekend to stay. Even if I work with tourism, I’m still a citizen of Bologna and I do hope this balance is preserved. I don’t want more tourists in exchange for losing the soul of the city. What’s happening in Venice and Florence is not good, for me. If Bologna would become Venice – I don’t think it will, because Venice is a very strange city, very unique – I wouldn’t be happy. I think the government should make some rules that people have to follow. If you give people the opportunity to do whatever they like, with no rules, people will get as much money as they can and won’t care about everything else.

JN: Getting back to food, for those who have never been to Bologna, how would you describe the cooking character of Bologna?

AC: It’s a thing that’s very common in Italy: every city – I would say, every neighborhood – has its own traditions and recipes. If you just move a few kilometers from one town to another, the food culture completely changes. I think it’s one of the reasons Italian food is so loved, around the world. That’s very true in Bologna today. When people come here for the first time, they should expect a very tough city for vegetarians, and especially for vegans. Even if we are changing – on the tours, we can arrange a tour for vegetarians – it’s still a city based on meat.

JN: That’s because Bologna has always been an affluent city?

AC: That’s one reason, but it’s also about where our city is and how our region is geographically located. We are on a big plain that’s very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter. It’s very humid. Compared to the South, it wasn’t good to dry pasta. So when people ask me, “Why don’t you make spaghetti bolognese, why is it a fake?” my answer is because we couldn’t dry pasta on the street like people from Gragnano near Naples used to. It’s a district known especially for the quality of the water but also because it has a lot of wind and a lot of sun, so the pasta could dry outside. That couldn’t happen in Bologna because we don’t have any wind. But we have a lot of countryside with a lots of farms, a lot of chickens and eggs. So in the past, to give strength to the peasants that had to work hard in the fields, we created something that could give them strength. Egg pasta was perfect. Also, in our tradition you see some very old dishes and sauces that were first made not to waste anything. My parents and grandparents taught me that food is really important, you don’t have to throw away anything. My favorite recipes from here are leftover dishes. Tortellini, first of all, was a leftover dish. It was first created to preserve the old meat that was falling apart. They folded it into a square of pasta and cooked it in broth. Another pasta I love is passatelli, which is made with old crusts of bread. You mix it with parmigiano-reggiano cheese, salt, and flour. You press it, and you can cook it in broth or you can cook it as a pasta. It’s one of the most delicious pastas that you can have. Everyone knows about ragù. Now ragù is something that you can pay 15 Euro for a dish, but it was another leftover sauce. You read in books that it took hours and hours to make this sauce. The reason is that we use old beef, so to make it tender you need more time. And so, in Bologna you get a very genuine cuisine. Not healthy, I won’t say it’s healthy, but it’s trying to use all the things that we have.

JN: Tell me a little about lasagne. You mentioned already the misunderstanding of spaghetti bolognese. I don’t know if you know about American lasagne, but it makes spaghetti bolognese look good, because in America they make very thick noodles – water and flour, no egg – and put in ricotta, mozzarella, and it becomes very heavy. Lasagne in Emilia-Romagna is very different; I always describe it as this beautiful paradox of luxurious and light, like cashmere.

AC: I have a memory about lasagne. I have a memory because I had this very rough trattoria just near my apartment, in my village, and I remember my father going there sometimes on Sundays. He would take home lasagne, and we had lunch. There were two fingers of oil in the bottom, it was really fat. It was something that was very heavy. Bolognese cuisine has changed a lot. The lasagne that we have today is not the one that I used to have twenty years ago. Now it’s a lot lighter than before. In this place, I don’t know if you read on the menu, it’s written, “We serve lasagne only on Sundays.” It’s not something that we have every day, it’s still something special.

JN: Because it takes a lot of work to assemble.

AC: It takes a lot of time. Most of the real, authentic Bolognese recipes take time to be made. Think also about the desserts, the rice cake. It takes at least a couple of hours to prepare. A lot of people think that we have these traditional recipes every day. I wouldn’t get to age 40 if we did, and my doctor would kill me if I had tortellini or mortadella every day. These are special dishes for us. The egg pasta, the lasagne, the bollito are things that are popular in restaurants or at home for special occasions.

JN: But why are they on every restaurant menu, then? Where are the lighter dishes, the healthier dishes?

AC: They are at home. We are called “the fat” because our tradition is a lot richer than Tuscany, or other cities.

JN: Now, in America, nothing changes more often than dietary health advice. First, fat’s the problem — then it’s not fat, it’s sugar. We’ve slowly come to realize that fat isn’t the demon that we said it was. In America, sugar is the current demon. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but has that happened in Italy? Is fat still the major demon in health?

AC: Well, there are a lot of trends, but you need to separate what’s marketing from what’s true. I can tell you my personal diet. One sentence that I like from an Italian doctor, Franco Berrino, a cancer specialist who wrote a lot of books about cooking, is  “Don’t buy from the supermarket and don’t eat something that your grandmother wouldn’t know.” You make your grandmother read the list of ingredients, and if there’s something that she doesn’t know, you don’t buy it.

JN: So, don’t worry about butter, but worry about the supermarket. Does that seem right to you?

AC: I don’t think there are super-healthy food and demons; I think it’s a matter of balance. If I eat the purest food on earth every day, I would get sick. If I ate avocado every day, in a month I would get sick. If I ate butter every day, I would get sick. If I eat butter once a month, avocado once a month, ham once a month, I would be good. Of course there’s good food and bad food, but I think it’s a matter of selection. It has to be put in how we choose how to buy.

JN: Are there statistics that Bolognese live shorter lives than other regions in Italy? Because, if not, you could argue, what’s the problem? If people in Venice aren’t living longer on seafood, then maybe it’s not so bad.

AC: There’s no such statistic as far as I know, and food is not the only factor.

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JN: We can’t talk about Bologna and not talk about tortellini. It’s a big topic, I know.

AC: Yes, it’s one of the dishes that you should have. You should say tortellini soup.

JN: In brodo. Some people serve it, like tonight, with cream.

AC: I recently saw a funny picture on Instagram that was The Divine Comedy’s Hell, by Dante, of Bolognese. In the worst girone [circle] of Inferno, there were people who served tortellini with ragù.

JN: [Laughter]

AC: And in the last one, there were Modenese – people from Modena. [Laughter]

JN: So, what’s in the tortellini, why are they so special, and why do they have to be in broth?

AC: Tortellini is a small square of sfoglia – egg pasta dough – which is folded and filled with a mix of pork loin, mortadella, a young parmigiano-reggiano cheese, salt, and nutmeg. In a lot of cooking classes, you can be taught about how to make the sfoglia, but the old artisans wouldn’t ever tell you the proportions of the filling. The ingredients you know for sure, but they would never tell you the proportions. That’s the real secret of tortellini. It’s another recipe that was not common to have every day, because it takes a lot of time. The typical Sunday lunch with family was preparing the meat broth first: putting a carrot, some onion, some potatoes, some celery, and then different kinds of meat. In the broth you can put some chicken, some beef, different kinds. At Christmas, capon, the bones, osso buco. And then, you have a fat and rich broth. The broth is really important.

JN: It cooks for a long time? All day, or for a few hours?

AC: It cooks slowly. In Bologna, we say the flame or the heat is low; in the South, the flame is high. So, it’s another recipe not to throw away leftovers. You eat the boiled meat, made to prepare the broth, as a second course, bollisto misto. So, you can take the best eggs, make the best pasta and the best filling, but if you cook tortellini in a terrible broth, you get a terrible dish. I remember one time I brought really well-made tortellini to a friend in Florence, but the lady didn’t know that they had to be cooked in broth, and she threw them in salted water. They were just terrible. The broth is as important as the pasta.

JN: So, they have to be not only served in broth, but cooked in broth. Someone could cook them in salted water and then serve them in broth, but that’s not the same thing.

AC: No, no, no. They need to get the broth, even if it’s a short cooking, a few minutes. It’s very important.

JN: The other day I came across a New York Times article from 1982, over 35 years ago. It was talking about how pasta shops were popping up. The idea was that before the 1980s, because almost everyone was making pasta at home, there really weren’t many pasta shops. They were saying that the pasta shop was a new thing, about 30 years ago. Today, I walk around in Bologna and I see these shops with tortellini. At least 50% of the time, they look already dried-out and old. Am I being too harsh in that assessment?

AC: You’re right, but I’ll go back a little earlier. At the beginning of the last century, there was a very flourishing industry of industrial tortellini. There was a big company that used to make tortellini and ship it, dried, abroad. Now, there are still a few, but that has almost disappeared. But in the last century, we were really famous for shipping it.

JN: Would Italians eat those, or were they only for shipping out of the country?

AC: Also Italians. During and before the Second World War, a lot of Italians moved to the United States. So I’m sure they were popular for Italians who moved away. Also, Bologna was the first place where canned tuna was created. That was created to ship mortadella abroad. Bologna had some very smart companies that created ways to ship food abroad. But to answer your question, it’s absolutely true that it’s really hard to find someone, especially young, able to make tortellini – not only able, but with the will to make tortellini.

JN: It does take some work, but it’s not that hard. It takes some time; I think it’s more of a time thing than a skill thing.

AC: Yes, it takes some practice, like anything.

JN: But eating tortellini from the shop, that look two days old – it makes me a little bit sad.

AC: I can tell you what I do. For Christmas, I’m not able to make tortellini. I order it from the shop that I know. I go there the same day, and take it home. But you can also freeze it. It’s OK; it will last a couple of months in the freezer, and then you take it out and throw it in the broth.

JN: Speaking of health, we’re finishing dinner here around 10 PM, and some people are just sitting down to start dinner. In America, there are some interesting studies that show that in terms of metabolism and gaining weight, we should be eating dinner many hours before sleep – like at 4 or 5 PM. I’m curious what you think about that.

AC: It happens a lot to me, that some of my customers ask me to book a restaurant at 6 or 7 PM. My answer is always the same: unfortunately, it’s not possible to eat in a restaurant at that time. As I told you previously, going to eat in a restaurant for me as a kid wasn’t a habit. It wasn’t something I do once a week like I’m doing now. I was taught to eat at home at 6:30 or 7:30 PM as soon as my father came home from work. He was tired, he was hungry, so he wanted to eat as soon as he could.

JN: So why is restaurant dining later? That’s strange to me.

AC: I don’t know, I think it’s a habit. The more you go to the South, it’s even worse. The more you go to Rome and Sicily, Puglia, you can go to restaurants around 9 PM and even later. Here in Bologna, the right time to go is about 8 PM.

JN: You finish at 10 PM, and you go to sleep at…?

AC: Midnight. At home I eat earlier. You don’t have to think about what’s happening at a restaurant as our normal habits.

JN: You mentioned earlier some wonderful things about Bologna. What are some things that aren’t wonderful, that you’d like to see changed about Bologna, either politically or culturally?

AC: There’s a thing that’s really paining my heart: I told you that I love walking under the porticoes; it’s one of the things that I love the most. The problem is, if you walk on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, under the porticoes, you’re going to meet a lot of garbage in front of every gate. You see on Tuesday the plastic, on Wednesday the paper. I am in favor of separating the recycling, but doing it in this way, you’re basically walking into the trash.

JN: There’s trash everywhere all the time, basically.

AC: To do a good thing, you do something bad. To recycle, you ruin the city. So, I think it’s not working at all.

JN: For most of the 20thcentury, Bologna was associated with Communist government; I think there was a Communist mayor until the 1990s. Is Bologna still Left-leaning in that sense? What’s the government like? Is it respected or ridiculed?

AC: Well, there are some topics of debate. It’s still laughed at. The last election, the Left won with about a few votes; something that ten or fifteen years ago would never have happened, beause it was completely Left then. You knew for sure who would win, before the election. Now, for example, in my village a civil party got elected. So, things are changing. For the Left in Italy, it’s not a good time. My opinion about these years is that Bologna is not getting worse than it was. What I see is the lack of courage, of bravery in making some unpopular decisions. Traffic, for example: closing the city center to cars, making some tough decisions that I think a politician has to make for common sense, not for just getting votes. If you are elected, you need to care about the city, not about votes – so you need to make some unpopular decisions if you care about the city. That’s not happening.

JN: We’ve talked most about the traditional cooking of Bologna, but of course even though people come to Italy for traditional dishes, every city is always evolving. What is going on in Bologna right now that is new and exciting to you?

AC: More than speaking about a single food, the thing that I’ve seen recently and that I like a lot is that different places are collaborating together to become better together. For example, O Fiore Mio, where we do the pizza tour, is collaborating with other good pizza makers to make good bread in the city, to improve. There are a lot of social events that put together some of the best chefs in the city. They collaborate and make new dishes; they try to innovate traditional dishes. So you see young chefs trying the change and innovate the tradition. I think that’s the most interesting thing that is happening right now. That’s what I see with my tours. I grow with the shops and producers I work with. Maybe we try to create something specific with our guests, or something that’s never been before. Two minds usually work better than one. So that’s what I see the most.

JN: What do you see happening with craft beer? I’ve noticed that not just in Bologna, but in all of Italy. Fifteen years ago, there wasn’t craft beer in Italy at all.

AC: I saw a boom in craft beer about five years ago. Everybody, even at home, wanted to make his own beer. Now it’s more settled. There are small producers, and you’re starting to see those small producers’ bottles in the supermarkets. I think the people that want to make good beer are there. I know good microbreweries, like Vecchia Orsa, Birra Cerqua, Statale Nove; it’s all good. I don’t see a lot of new beers, I don’t see a movement.

JN: Would you encourage visitors to seek out the beer in the city, and not just the wine?

AC: There’s a microbrewery in the mountains behind Bologna called Beltaine that makes beer from chestnuts, which is quite strange. One Canadian customer told me that they have so many chestnuts that they throw them away. If I tell this story to a farmer in our area, they would get mad because chestnut is very precious; they make pasta from chestnuts, they make desserts, they make polenta. And now, these young guys, they make beer. If you love beer, you can find something else. There’s another microbrewery called Vecchia Orsa that works with people with mental illness. They put the label on the bottle; I think it’s a very good project. They were hit by the earthquake in 2012 and their warehouse was completely destroyed, but after that they built it again, and now they have more beers. They are good guys. Even if there’s not something new about beer every day, there are people who do good work.

JN: My last question would be, besides taking one of your food tours, what advice do you have for people who visit the city? One problem that Venice has is that the average tourist doesn’t even spend the night. They literally come in the morning, take a selfie at San Marco, and they leave. What advice do you have for people visiting Bologna? How long should they stay, how should they spend the time?

AC: I can give you things to do in Bologna for about a week. The city center is small; you can walk from one gate to the oppposite in about 40 minutes. So, it’s small, but there are a lot of things. It’s strange, but one suggestion I give for people who stay for more days is to visit the cemetery, because it’s an example of the beauty of my city. Of course, you wouldn’t go to the cemetery. I visited it for the first time a few years ago. It took my breath away, because it was like visiting another city in this city. It’s outside the walls, but it has the same structure. It has porticoes like the city. It’s really a museum; you can get lost in there, you spend hours just wandering around. That’s just one example. There really are a lot of things you can do in the city, not to mention the events and exhibitions that change constantly. All the students, all the people who come to live in Bologna give it this vibe, that the city’s always alive. There are at least five or six exhibitions to see every month. If you like live music, if you like jazz, there are many concerts. One suggestion is to use Bologna as a base to visit the cities nearby. It doesn’t make sense to me to stay in Florence and then visit Bologna during the day. You should do the opposite. Hotels in Florence are a lot more expensive, and from Bologna you’re in Florence in 35 minutes by high-speed train.

JN: Florence feels weird to me. I don’t know why.

AC: It’s weird.

JN: I can’t explain it. Even Venice doesn’t feel the same way to me.

AC: It’s conquered. I go to Florence once a year, on a Saturday. I have my places. I have this market that I visit, but I run away from the square. So, if you stay in Bologna, in less than an hour you’re in Florence. In 30 minutes, you’re in Modena, in 40 minutes you’re in Ravenna. One hour, you’re in Mantua, Ferrara. One hour an a half, you’re in Venezia. If you have a car, you can visit the hills. There are a lot of hidden gems that few people know about.

JN: We’ll wrap it up there. Thanks again for sharing your time and helping me to get to know this beautiful city during the past few years.

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